Colin Hay Discusses Men at Work, His Solo Career, and the Music Biz [Part Two]

Hay spoke to AllMusic shortly after the release of his latest solo release, Man @ Work: Volume 2, which like its successful predecessor, contains "re-imagined favorites from across Hay’s rich catalog, including Men at Work classics, solo album highlights, and new material."

So without further ado, here is the second part of AllMusic's lengthy interview with Hay.

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What do you recall about the actual recording of the Men at Work albums from the '80s, Business as Usual, Cargo, and Two Hearts?

"Well, Business as Usual was very quick and it was great, because we had a ten day pre-production with the producer, Peter McIan, who sadly passed away quite recently. Very sad to hear that news. He was a great record producer. He was perfect for us, really. And we had a process of pre-production where in a way, he 'pop-ified' the music. We had simplified certain parts, and turned maybe a six-minute song into a three-and-a-half minute song – while retaining the integrity and what was important to the song."

"And when we actually got into the studio, it was a very small studio called Richmond Recorders [in Melbourne]. And it took about ten days to record – five days for the rhythm tracks and five days for overdubs. So, it was very quick. We worked quite quickly and it was a very inexpensive record to make. But he was really the key in bringing that album together – Peter McIan."

"Cargo took us a little bit longer. We ultimately released that album too quickly. I think we should have waited, but water under the bridge now. But yeah, Cargo took a little bit longer. I still think we had some good songs on that record. Perhaps we could have spent a little bit more time on that – we might have had a better record, who knows? But we were a little bit more experienced and we still had McIan working on that record, so that was good."

"By the time Two Hearts came around, the band was done. We didn't realize it at the time, but the band was over. And indeed, it was only three of us left. John and Jerry had been sacked. So, it was Ron and Greg and I, and Russell [Deppeler] the manager, and we made the Two Hearts record.

"But it was really the death throes of the band. Ron left halfway through, and at the end of it, Greg said, 'I've had enough,' and he just went home – and the band was done. I think there's some interesting songs on it, but the first two you could say were the real Men at Work albums, in a way, because of the fact that those records contained the classic line-up of the band."

Business as Usual topped the US charts for an unprecedented 15 weeks from late 1982 to early 1983. How overwhelming was the band's success?

"Well you don't realize it's overwhelming. You think that you're going to handle everything well. It's like a lot of people, when you're young…I mean, I'd spend probably 15-20 years dreaming of having a successful recording career and touring the world. And all of a sudden, when you get that, it's kind of like, 'Oh, okay, well, your dreams became realized.' And then how do you handle that? When you're young, well, certainly, when I was young, I thought I knew everything. And it turned out that I knew practically nothing. So, your education about life and about the business you're in, and creativity and interpersonal relationships and all those kinds of things often happen after you've had success. And that's what happened to us."

"We had incredible, phenomenal success…and then it all imploded. And we didn't have the communication skills to avert what, in essence, ended that career, which was the demise of the band. When that happened, I have to say that I wasn't unhappy about the fact that Men at Work broke up. I was quite happy to be on my own. I'd spent 15 years on my own, and I was quite happy to be on my own again, and start again, and experiment and play music and keep moving forward."

"But the impact of the band, I think, has continued over a long period of time. We only made three albums, but two that were successful commercially. And yet, there's a great love for those songs by millions and millions of people. For which, I'm eternally grateful."

What do you recall about the tours in the '80s, when Men at Work was at the peak of their success? Because a lot of people point to the '80s as a time of excess and partying. Is it fair to say that was the same for Men at Work?

"Yeah. I mean, probably not as much as a lot of bands. But we did our fair share of that. I mean, alcohol was my Achilles' heel. And I realized that I had a problem with that pretty early on. And I spent about probably six years trying to give up alcohol. And I eventually did in 1991. It wasn't that important to us. I mean, we were more kind of cups of tea, have a bit of weed or something after the show. It wasn't so much the other thing – of going crazy."

What song is the underrated gem of the Men at Work catalog?

"I don't know. I mean, I don't know about this whole 'underrated' thing. I mean, underrated by whom? Who's doing the rating? I don't know. I find the whole thing about whether something's underrated as being weird. I think there's a lot of songs on the records that are that are great, and I think that they are appreciated by [fans]. Y'know, no matter what song I play at a concert, for example, there's always somebody in the audience who loves that song, and I think, 'Well, it's not underrated by them'."

I personally think the song "Blue for You" off Cargo was underrated, and would have been a good single.

"It's a single now, off the new album. I have no idea [why it wasn't a single off Cargo]. I can't even remember whether it was talked about. I think that the people decided that 'Overkill,' 'It's a Mistake,' and "Dr Heckyl and Mr. Jive'…I never really cared for 'Dr Heckyl and Mr. Jive' that much as a song. I never cared for it then and I still don't care for it that much. But at the time, it seemed to work, and people liked it."

What was your take on the comparisons at the time between Men at Work and the Police? Were they valid or invalid?

"Yeah, I think they were pretty valid in many ways. It's not like we went out of our way to copy the Police. It wasn't like I started singing just after the Police came to the scene. But I remember driving along and hearing the Police for the first time, and I just had to pull over and think, 'Oh my God. There's a guy that sounds like me.' And then, of course, they became successful before we did. And so, obviously the comparisons had come in mainly I think, because of the sound of my voice. And also, maybe the add9 chords that we used, that Andy Summers used, as well. But I don't really care. If you're gonna compare us to the Police, well, I'll take that. They were a fantastic band."

And what was your take on the lawsuit in 2007 concerning "Down Under' and "Kookaburra" [the latter of which was written in 1932 by Marion Sinclair]? Do you feel that claim was founded or unfounded?

"Well, obviously I didn't think it was. It was a serious claim, because we went to court for six years defending it. So, it's a complicated subject, but there was a lawsuit which we had to defend in the end, because there's two bars of 'Kookaburra Sits in the Old Gum Tree' and 'Down Under,' which were added to the song – innocuously and unconsciously – although people find that hard to believe. But that's the truth of it."

"And after 28 years [since 'Down Under' was first released], there was a lawsuit, and we lost. But I think that they [Larrikin Music] lost, as well, really. I mean, they received a very small percentage – not of the copyright of the song. So, the co-writer of the song is still as it was. I think that it was a claim which should have never gotten to court. It should have been settled before it went through the court system."

"But they wanted 60% of 'Down Under,' which was a very cynical thing for them to claim. They had greed and dollar signs in their eyes, and they went for it. And so, we had to defend it. EMI, that was, and I was sued, as well. I don't lose sleep over it. But it was something that I'll never forget – or forgive – for that matter."




How was it touring again as Men at Work with Greg in the late '90s and early 21st century, and did his death in 2012 come as a surprise?

"Well, I loved Greg. I always loved Greg, and I still love Greg. So, I loved touring with him from '96 until 2002 [which spawned a live album, 1998's Brazil]. But he was struggling a bit during that time. But we had some great shows, we had some great tours. And I think when he passed away, it was a surprise, but I knew that he was in trouble before that. I would go and see him, and Greg was never a drinker when he was younger, but he developed an alcohol thing later in his life. And he seemed unhappy."

"And the lawsuit had affected him greatly. He wasn't sued for it, but he was the one who played the line [on the flute], so he felt a responsibility or a guilt for that, and thought that he'd be remembered for that. And it was terrible. It was just terrible when he died, because he was a great friend of mine and someone who I really respected, and he was so smart and intellectually capable. And he was someone that I always imagined that I would grow old with and laugh at ridiculous things until we could laugh no longer. So, it's very sad that he's gone, and I still get upset about it when I think about it."

Are you still in touch with the other surviving former band members of Men at Work?

"No."

How do you think the music of Men at Work holds up today when you hear it, or from the fans' reaction when you play it?

"Well, I think it's really strong. If I listen to the records we made, it's still sonically very strong, and I think all the parts still work. I think it's music that will be around for a lot longer than I'm around."

How would you compare playing with the current Men at Work line-up to the classic line-up?

"Well, I love the band that I have now. It's just a different band. You can't really compare them, because it's a different dynamic. It's a different structure. I mean, Men at Work was a band back then, who were having an attempt at having a democratic band, and making decisions together, and all those things."

"This is a band now where I'm employing people. So, it's a whole different thing. It's not even really something you can compare. But I love playing with this band. I love these musicians that I play with, because they're all excellent musicians, and we have a great time traveling together. So, it's fantastic."

Are there any solo songs on the Man at Work 2 album that when you play them, you feel could have worked as Men at Work songs?

"There's a lot of overlaps. But I've made like, 15 albums since Men at Work. So, it's a lot of material to draw from. The songs that I recorded with Men at Work were specific to that band. Because if I had a song and I would take a song to the band, the song contained everyone's musicality and everyone's input. So, those Men at Work songs sounded like that band, because we were the ones who were playing it."

"Now when we play the songs, it has a different flavor to it because of the musicians who are playing the songs. But you still have to have respect for the original recordings and the original parts and the original arrangements – because that's what was successful, and that's what people want to hear. So, I have no problem playing those songs."

"But I've only been really touring as Men at Work – apart from the tours that Greg and I did from '96 until 2002. I haven't really done any Men at Work tours – only since like, 2019. So, it's just a tour here and there. It's not really a huge part of my life, is what I'm saying. Y'know, what you did 45 years ago is great, and I love it. But it's not like I wake up every day thinking about Men at Work."

You just mentioned that in 2019 you began touring again as Men at Work. Did you always own the name 'Men at Work,' or did you get the rights to it back? How did that work out, that you were able to tour as 'Men at Work'?

"Well, it's a nebulous thing, really. Greg and I toured as 'Men at Work' – the name was like a brand, which was kind of floating around there, like a rudderless ship. So, there's an inner-dynamic that happens, where I can go out there and play as Men at Work. That's just the way that it's happened. I think if anyone has a right to go out on tour as Men at Work, it's me. So, that's what I'm doing."

How would you compare touring today to back in the old days?

"On stage, it's great. I mean, technically, it's great. All the sound systems are much better, and the way you can hear on stage is great. I go out on tour solo, just myself, and so I also go out with the band – the same band that I have now, that is under the moniker of Men at Work. I love touring with them just under my own name, because we can play a lot more material from all the different periods of different albums. And plus, we always play the Men at Work songs, anyway. It's not like we never play them. We always play a few of those in the set. So, it's not like we don't play Men at Work when we play the solo shows."

"And then when I play as Men at Work, I think there's one song we do that's not a Men at Work song – but the rest are all Men at Work songs. And then if I play solo, that's a different kind of touring altogether – it's just me and a guitar and an audience. And I think that's probably the dearest thing to me, because when I got dropped by MCA Records, I just started touring on my own, and people started to come. Not very many people, but they started off 40-50 people, and now it's still not huge stadiums or anything – I play to maybe 1,000 or 1,500 people a night when I play in theaters. And that's developed over the last 30 years."

"And that's probably my favorite thing to do, because it's very personal, and it just involves myself and the audience. The audience who know what their own struggles are like, they know what it's like to get up on stage and play music. And there's an understanding which happens between myself and the audience, which doesn't happen anywhere else. It doesn't happen with the music industry, so to speak, or even doing what I'm doing with you. Y'know, you write about it, and people will read about it, and that's great. And I'm happy to talk to you and so forth."

"But there's nothing like the experience that you can have with an audience, where they come and see you, and they want something from you. And so hopefully, you give them that. And everyone is richer for it. I certainly know that I am. So, that's really what's important to me now, more than anything else – is that feeling of being useful, and a part of people's lives that has some resonance and meaning today. Which, is affected by what you did 40/45 years ago – but it's not defined by it."



I would imagine also playing with Ringo Starr & His All-Star Band has brought a lot of attention towards you as a solo artist and with your past work, right?

"Not really. The solo thing sits outside that in a way, and playing with Ringo is incredible – because he's Ringo, and he was in the Beatles. But that's a specific thing, I think. Y'know, people come along and they want to hear those old songs, and they want to hear 'Down Under' and 'Who Can It Be Now?' And that's kind of more or less what that is – it's a 'hit fest,' and you're a sideman for everyone else. And it's a great thing to be part of. But playing solo – especially playing for the last three decades – is something which has just developed over time, which is its own thing."

"There are overlaps with everything – there's overlaps with Men at Work, there's overlaps with Ringo, there's overlaps with the solo thing. But the solo thing is just kind of, as I said before, dear to me because of the fact that it just involves myself and the audience. Which, it has its own life. It's not dependent on massive success or anything. It's just depending on you're going to turn up and they're going to turn up and see you. And there's something great about that."

You just mentioned the Beatles. How much of an influence were the Beatles on you as a primary influence early on? And were there other artists?

"There were other artists, but in reality there was the Beatles, and then there was everybody else. My brother turned me on to black music. He turned me on to Otis Redding and Booker T & the MG's. And a lot of a lot of music that I was unaware of until he made me aware of it. And then I became aware of the fact that the Beatles were aware of it, so I thought, 'Oh, that's where it all comes from.' I was unaware of it before that."

"But lots of people were influences as I became a little bit older, like Randy Newman is a huge influence. And I love Joni Mitchell, and of course Bob Dylan was great. And James Taylor. When I started playing acoustic, James Taylor and people like that were a huge influence in terms of the way they played the guitar and the way they structured songs and so forth."

Do you have any other upcoming projects in addition to Man at Work 2 or tours you'd like to discuss?

"I'm going out on the road doing a solo tour. Well, I go back out with Ringo after this tour [on a bill with Toto and Christopher Cross], and then I do a solo tour in the fall of the US and the UK and Australia. So, that takes me through to December. So, I'm not thinking too much beyond that, except that after that, like next year, I want to spend a bit more time at home and in the studio, where I can hopefully do some interesting things downstairs with some interesting people. So, that's what I'm looking forward to, just being more at home. Who knows if that'll happen, but that's my plan."

Lastly, my friends had a debate not that long ago: some of them named 'Overkill' as the greatest song of the '80s, and some of them took exception to that. Would you like to settle this argument for them?

"I would never ever claim that myself. But I'm very, very happy for other people to make that claim." [Laughs]